There’s alot to be said for monogamy; in terms of disease prevention, relationship stability, and a few other things, it tends to work out better. There’s alot to be said for nonmonogamous setups; jealousy isn’t validated, it makes it clear that the relationship is about what you do together, not what you do with other people, and, of course, you have permission to have some fun at the same time. And each also definitely has their drawbacks. There is no perfect way to handle the human heart and libido.
It’s possible for either choice to be a selfish or giving decision (or both, of course). Who are you thinking about when you think about this issue? Are you thinking about protecting your lover from stds, from the hurt feelings if you were to sleep around, about reassuring them that they are all you need? Or are you thinking about protecting your own wang, your own emotions, your own insecurity? Are you thinking about the freedom and joy that your lover can experience? Are you thinking about the opportunity to get your rocks off with that pretty thing who isn’t your lover?
There are a couple of unique challenges for monogamy among homos (including dykes, people). Homos don’t have nearly as consistent a support system for monogamy as straight people. There are calls for monogamy, there are calls for abstinence, and there are calls for getting your rocks off. Some people pick and choose the message to listen to, others choose none, and some just listen to everything.
Then there’s the graph theory explanation. Unlike heteros, this isn’t a bipartide graph. In everyday english, me and my ex’s ex are far more likely to find one another attractive than my straght friend’s straight ex’s ex. Since everyone can be attracted to everyone, it’s a much messier playing field. And a less stable one. This applies to lesbians and bisexuals as well. There’s a really obnoxious model for this, that I think actually makes a valid point, but I wouldn’t want to subject anyone to an obviously flawed mathematical model that doesn’t want to hear it. 😉
But unless it’s his mother or sister, his lips shouldn’t touch another’s unless they’re mine. No one should see him naked but me. No one should have his hands up his shorts / down his pants, unless it’s me. And certainly, his hands shouldn’t be in someone else’s pants unless they are mine.
The latter parts aren’t so objectionable (though my first thought on hearing them was “what about the doctor” and “what about the lockerroom”), but I do find the first part objectionable. Do the same rules apply when they’re in france, russia, spain, or other situations where kissing is a standard greeting among friends, like for some bar fags?
Yes, yes, those are all special circumstances, but my point is that I bet it’s not really the action, so much as the intent that bothers you. It’s a complicated thing that can’t be measured easily by a set of simple “thou shalt not”s. “Thou shalt not take action out of other attractions” or “Thou shalt not violate my standards of accepted social behavior”. Except, of course, people have different standards.
As more time passes, I see that fewer and fewer gay men feel this way. It seems to be mostly a heterosexual thing. As I said before, I don’t care what other couples do. But with so many people adopting this multi-partnered philosophy, it seems to be leaving fewer and fewer men who actually believe in “my one and only”. Where does that leave me?
See, I’ve observed the exact opposite trend. I think with increasing social acceptance (not to mention the advent of hiv), there’s been a trend towards a more coherent advocacy of monogamy, and that the younger generation tends more towards that perspective. But maybe I’m on crack, cuz this is based on my own observations, naturally biased by my own ideas. Maybe you are too 😉 Maybe things haven’t really changed all that much.
mmm libido…
Okay that said – I agree with you. On most everything. But I’d say the difference at the end the relationship trends you are seeing, are simply the people you are exposed to.
And most younger homos – in my opinion aren’t exposed the IDEA of open relationships right away. So maybe that is why you see that trend? Once they get exposed to more…?
Who knows.
monogamy
Weird, that I actually did a post on this on Friday from the other angle as one who isn’t sure that a monogamous relationship would be right for me or what I’m looking for anymore, so I couldn’t resist chiming in. I’d link to the post if I knew how, but kind of computer illiterate for that. I still feel that setting up those restrictions and those boundaries sounds unhealthy. No one can touch his body, makes it about that body being yours and not your partners anymore. Free will. Why does a relationship lessen because one person had sex with someone else? Shouldn’t a bond of love be based on deeper things than sex? At what point does their flirtation/affection for someone else dampen their affection for you… a kiss for a stranger, a hug that’s a little too long, sex? Is it the act that destroys your feelings, or the feelings it creates because of it… i should be enough, he shouldn’t lie to me, he promised, etc.
My take is that those restrictions are unhealthy, and i’d rather have the mental connection and the intimacy and not worry so much about who else they touch. I want to be secure enough with myself, where their actions don’t damage me that way and where i’m giving and receiving something so much deeper than sex. We’ve all had empty sex. Why be threatened by that? Just my $0.02.
Re: monogamy
let’s try that again, shall we? get the <'s & >‘s right
to add a link to somewhere else, you just use the html primitive <a href=”url”>text of link</a> for instance <a href=”http://www.google.com/”>google</a> produces google. So just open up your post in another window, and copy the url from that, ie <a href=”http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=sfennui&itemid=10109″>jim’s monogamy post</a>.
Re: monogamy
*jumps up and down* yay. course i’ll probably forget again by tomorrow. ;p
Re: monogamy
Mmkay.
My question: How do you put the actual < and > brackets in the text of a post (to discuss HTML for example) without actually making a tag?
Re: monogamy
You make a < with an < and > with an > and an & with &
HTML
Yay! Someone who could do that without screwing soemthing up. 🙂 I do web design so I understand it all. It just seems whenever I see someone type out something like that, they invariably screw up something and it looks dumb. 🙂 Good job!
Re: HTML
That’s nothing. Try writing a C program such that the binary will print out the source code, without accessing the source file. That’s tricky. =) (I can post the source for how I did it sometime if you really want to see my geek-penis)
Re: HTML
“geek-penis” LOL I love that. No, I think that program would be a bit much for me to absorb right now. Thanks tho. 🙂
Re: monogamy
Now the content response.
I used to be absolute polyamorist. I told when we started dating that I didn’t do monogamy. I think I sensed deep down that this was a big blow to him, but I was totally not ready for monogamy. In large part due to the time we spent together I am massively more secure than I was before we started dating (which hints at just how insecure I was then, scary). I learned that I did feel jealousy twinges the one time I recall that Josh fooled around. And I also learned that the whole absolutism about my polyamory was based on a desperate need for validation through my sexuality. It’s no longer a desperate need, more like an itchy craving. But that’s another story.
At that time I was refusing to think about my own needs and wants, and so my reasoning was generous, though it didn’t take into account what he wanted, so in truth, it was just fucked up. It was a kinda messed up situation all over.
One thing we did right, though (to my mind), was laying it out on the table. There was none of this “is he really interested, or isn’t he? How do we assume this is going to work?” stuff. After a week or two of fooling around, Josh (remarkable nerve on his part for a first-timer, most impressive) asked me if we were boyfriends, I freaked in that showing-nothing sort of way, and ‘discussion’ or at least proclamation followed. I wish I could do that conversation over again, knowing what I know I know now, but you don’t get second chances in life, just lessons learned.
These days, I want an open relationship. One which eventually settles down sexually into a comfortable monogamy-like state where we’re there for one another most nights, but don’t flip out if hanky panky occurs. I don’t have that strong a jealousy drive. The most it’ll drive me to do is make catty comments. But I could deal with a monogamous relationship with a phenomenal guy who made it worth it to me in other ways. Of course, slut around though I may, I won’t call anyone who is less than phenomenal my boyfriend, so, all in all, these days, monogamy is sorta a non-issue to me.
Re: monogamy
I was really glad to read your line about “…I also learned that the whole absolutism about my polyamory was based on a desperate need for validation through my sexuality”. There seems to be a very strong current of this in the polyamory I’ve seen, that hasn’t been addressed. People whose whole identity is caught up in their conquests. The thrill of the chase that either becomes boredom or fear of commitment when it lasts too long.
My own paranoia, however, starts making comments like “well, you can argue that this is true for making any new friends (JUST friends), that any contact with new people is just a desperate need to validate your own worth. Any time spent away from your SO could be considered “wanking” time, just truly selfish.” This, of course, ISN’T the case, but you see where the slippery slope heads…
Rahr. Stevie, if you (or anyone else reading this)can figure out what kind of interaction is healthy and what isn’t, please tell me. Is it possible to be in love, and have a libido, and fulfill all of that in a sane, responsible manner? Or is wanting it all just a sign that there’s something missing in yourself?
I have to respond. I really do. It’s the timing of this post.
There are certainly good reasons for monogamy, including the ones you mention. There are even specific circumstances where I could be monogamous again happily, though I don’t see it happening soon.
But I’ve been reminded by current events in my life that when poly is good, it’s really good. Having a whole little community of lovers and lovers’ lovers where everything is open and good and everybody likes each other — it just beats anything I’ve felt in monogamy all hollow.
Of course, when it’s bad it can be really bad. But as it turns out, I’m massively boredom-phobic 🙂
You bring up some very good points here. It’s more of a study than real opinions, like had. I also thought about the friendly kisses that often happens between gay guys. As for who you’re thinking of first, I think in many cases, you have to think of yourself first or you can be too much of a mess to be any good for your partner anyway.
Okay, you got me there (on the kissing part). Perhaps “his lips shouldn’t touch another’s” is a bit harsh. The peck hello is not a problem. It’s the sticking-your-tongue-down-his-throat part that gets me. 😉
And your last paragraph is also of particular interest. Perhaps it is in the way WE are changing, or perceiving things around us. I have been hanging out with people recently who are a bit more, uh, promiscuous than the people I normally hang out with. Perhaps that’s what makes it seem like “everyone is non-monogamous now!”
*cough*circuitboy*cough*
potkettleblack!
*snicker* Not yet – I haven’t got the bod you have yet nor have I shaved my chest/stomach. 😛
My stomach is not shaven! 😉
You knew this was coming……
Yes, Steve you must have known that I would make a response to this when you wrote it. And So that I dont dissapoint, here it is. I believe that in a meaningful relationship, the main point is sharing. You share your life with the other person. You experience life together, and thus are connected. By having a non monogamous relationship, you are having a significant portion of your life with someone else, presumably that you don’t love. How can you truly tell the person in your relationship that you love them, if you dont really share your life with them? Now I’m not saying that every second of every minute of every hour should be spent together. But sex I believe is significant and thus something that should be done only with the person you love. Finally, its a way to prove your love. If you can overcome any urges to have sex with random people, and be true to that one person, it shows that your love is strong and meaningful. Anyways, thats just what I believe, and it will not be apreciated if it is called niave. 🙂
I didn’t know, but I’m not surprised 😉
Yeah, I didn’t think about you replying, but I’m not surprised that you did. You have a strong opinion on this.
I won’t call it naive, simply rather inexperienced. You’ve obviously spent alot of time thinking about it. I spend and have spent alot of time thinking about my views too. But, when I was your age, it was all based on stuff I’d observed, without really participating. It got knocked around alot by reality. There are lessons only experience can teach and they add another dimension to the ideas.
My only suggestion is to be careful of judging others’ ways of life, but be aware and in control of your own. I wouldn’t be afraid to experiment, but you are taking a different road from mine.
There is more than one way to show love, and to see love.
And therefore as a stranger give it welcome. There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.