A friend of mine made a “no comments allowed” post that offended my sensibilities. So, I’ll respond to it here, without identifying the post in question.
He wrote a response to this article on the growth of HIV infections rates in various demographic groups: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25398121/
In particular he took note of the very high rate of HIV transmission in young (13-24) gay men. He took this moment to criticize the gay “community” as politically unsaavy. He said education isn’t a problem, noted unprotected sex with strangers as the cause, and made an impassioned plea for people not to be brainless animals/goddamned whores.
I can understand and appreciate the frustration, even share it. But I think there are a few points to be made here. 1) The gay community is a myth, which makes me feel much of the passion is misdirected, 2) the report isn’t talking about self-identified gay men, but rather men who have sex with men (MSM) and 3) The study as reported could be improved by reporting the data in different groupings, which would clarify the message.
To reframe this whole critique in a political light: Parents are responsible for the behavior of their children, even the gay ones. HRC, NGLTF, and PFLAG are going to be alot less influential in the life of the young queer than the young queer’s parents will be. Even up to age 24. If this were an article about 36 year olds and high rates of HIV infection, I’d be telling a different story. But it’s not. I read this story a different way. I read it as a failure of parents, particularly parents of ethnic minorities[*], to raise and care for their children well.
And if there’s an impassioned plea to be made it is this: Parents, love your children, care for them, protect them, and teach them to love, care for, and protect themselves. Even the queer ones. Especially if you belong to a culture that doesn’t like queers, make sure your children know you will love them regardless of their sexuality, and that being queer doesn’t mean you’ll let them get away with a damn thing you wouldn’t let your straight children get away with.
[ETA: * = Yeah, I know this is actually pretty offensive. I think “disadvantaged groups” would be more in line with what I was actually thinking, including po’ white trash from the sticks, [almost] like myself. But that’s not what the newspaper article said. It said ethnic minorities, and I’m not comfortable “fixing” that for them. Further, I don’t attribute this to personal or moral failures. I attribute this to resource deprivation and cultural norms. So I don’t have a problem with anyone’s ethnicity. I do have a problem with the norms/values of certain “ethnic cultures” or subcultures. But I’m a privileged white gay guy, so my critiques thereof are probably utterly useless in terms of “fixing” their culture. Beams, splinters, eyes, you know the story.
I agree with a lot of your assessment, except for how you phrase this sentence:
I read this story a different way. I read it as a failure of parents, particularly parents of ethnic minorities, to raise and care for their children well.
Just because the majority of infection rates are coming from ethnic minorities doesn’t meant that parents of ethnic minorities cannot or are not raising and caring for their children well.
And I don’t just mean the semantics should change, its an actual logical fallacy. I think the framing should be wider. Just because the pool of infection rates is drawing more highly from ethnic minorities doesn’t necessarily indicate its the fault of the pool itself. To me, its analagous to stats about the percentage of minorities in prison. Some people says, well, this is because those minorities are more violent/criminal and that is why the number are higher. But I see it as a symptom that we live in a systemically racist culture, so if we’re going to imprison 10% of it as a means of maintaining societal order, chances are we’re going to pull from demographic pools that we systemically think and treat badly, and that is how we end up with the statistics leaning one way or another. Or to give a non-race example, why the military is statistically stacked with young men and women who predominantly come from small-town/rural communities? Is it because those people are inherently more likely to want to be soldiers? Is it solely because of a different value system? No, of course not. It has to do with more complicated discussions about economics and options and educational and vocational opportunities.
To be clear (as stated in the disclaimer I added above, in response to this) I think ethnicity is a proxy for two relevant factors, economic advantage and a collection of cultural values. But ethnicity is what was reported, so I’m not going to twist their wording in my conclusions.
People get shit on, especially people of visible minority status. It would sadden, but not surprise me if alot of that HIV transmission among young men happens in prison. And no, I don’t think most of those folks belong in jail. Furthermore, I think locking people up knowing that they’ll likely get HIV and doing jack shit to prevent it constitutes cruel and unusual punishment at a bare minimum, if not mass negligent homicide. (Incidentally, the people of invisible minorities aren’t getting a free lunch either, but if we, the invisibles, let it slide and keep our mouths shut, we can generally pass without too much trouble.)
Minority cultures also come with particular norms and values which can have varying effects. Some of those norms can even up their kids’ chances of contracting HIV. I’m not the right guy to fight that fight (change from within, so much more effective) but that doesn’t mean I’m going to keep my mouth shut about it. Homo-hating cultures do not generally lead to good sexual self-care or lasting relationships for queers, both of which up the chances of HIV transmission.
Homo-hating cultures do not generally lead to good sexual self-care or lasting relationships for queers, both of which up the chances of HIV transmission.
Agreed. But I would also say we (white americans) live in a homo-hating culture too. Granted, its a different type of homo-hating then say other countries with laws about stoning, etc. etc., but in the context of this discussion about american health stats, taken from data about americans, even if the culture of origin is from a more stringent homophobic value system, if the people are living HERE, they must not share in it the same way. If someone from outer space would step into my life and take a cross-section of who I work with, what I see in my neighborhood, and what is on my cable-free television and magazines, they would see all the ways that gays are infrequently depicted and when they are, are more frequently demonized. There’s lots of christian-based-stuff everywhere saying things gays do are immoral or just icky, as well as all the ways that gays are just absent from all of the assumptions of a normal world. And then when it comes to trans…and other queers…..in general, just forget it. And they could say, he lives in a homo-hating culture and that must effect him. And it does. But I would also say, look, I’ve been here my whole life, I know how to filter it out, I know what small factions to focus my energies on, I know how to maintain a balance and pick and choose what my personal ethics are and not base them solely on the value-system around me. And I think we don’t always give people from other groups (based on ethnicity, nationality, religion) the same benefit of the doubt. So that’s why I always cringe a little when people speak in very general terms about how other norms are and why they are or aren’t working. Because its being seen through our own lens of what we deem best, and of course our methods of how we educate kids in our world works better, because the education was designed specifically tailored to work IN our system. Blaming the other system for being different and, because of those differences, rejecting our methods of progress doesn’t really advance the cause.
But in general, I am hypersensitive to the thinking of “this system works, so it must be the only system that works, so it must be the ONLY SYSTEM”, which I think most of us are prone to doing (we’re Americans!) and often trying to cultivate the antithesis, not just for the sake of a lively discussion with people (though its helpful), but because I’m often looking for more radical ways of rethinking problems that seem solution-less in the moment. I’m also curious to read the ideas and experiences of people and organizations doing work specifically within these communities, around this issue, because I bet their perspective on it is will have a lot more knowledge and experience than I have or what I would get from a news article.
I agree that there is no ‘gay community’ just there’s also no single ‘latino culture.’ People, particularly the media forget that theses groups are not a homogenous whole. They are wide highly varied groups.
I also take minor exception to this line of yours, I read it as a failure of parents, particularly parents of ethnic minorities, to raise and care for their children well.
I do think it is a failure of parents not to properly educate their children, but the increase in HIV rates has more to do with the cultural biases against homosexuality than individual parental care. It’s a bigger problem than can be laid at the parents feet.
I think the entire classification of MSM is an indication of how widespread and pervasive homophobia is in this country. It’s not getting better; in many ways it’s getting worse.
You’re absolutely right. I think minority parents have it alot tougher than white parents in so many ways. And they have a right to be pissed and plenty outside themselves to legitimately blame. Cultural change is called for, and that’s never easy.
I’m surprised that you think it’s getting worse. I’m pretty deliberately in a cultural bubble, I admit, but my perception was one of increasing tolerance. Why do you think otherwise? (MSMs are nothing at all new. Just naming them such is new, imho)
It may not be getting worse, I may just be seeing a different side of things. Despite being in the service industry I have very little contact with the ‘gay community.’ I get to see on a regular basis how pervasive homophobia is – just from the attitudes of people where I work. Add to that the current political climate, where the gay community is really going to have to be quiet for us to get the Republicans out of power. I really wish California could have waited until next tear rather than giving the right wing, yet another issue.
Minority gay issues are also coming to the fore, as the HIV stays posit, complicated by the very fact that they don’t choose to identify as gay. Saying so-called ‘gay issues’ are supposedly the province only of white gays and have nothing to do with them. The ‘community’ had made great strides but it seems some days it’s one step forward, two back.
A paranthetical aside
Do not gnash your teeth overmuch about the the _strategy_ of when gays choose to advance the causes of their own rights and access to equality. The republicans will always just spin the wheel of hate until it points to a new appropriate target. We’ve no monopoly in this role.
“A great many MSMs (including several who chat on gay.com) do not identify as gay”
This is very hard for people to grasp. Like, their brains shut down because they’ve been conditioned to consider only 2 possible labels.
The grim truth is that there is no necessary or logical connection between teh mansex and rainbows/lip gloss/antiques/female vocalists/etc. so people shouldn’t be surprised when individuals choose one and not the other.
You’re absolutely correct about there not being a monolithic “community” — and I think gay men are often the quickest to forget this. Gay folks claim to be champions of diversity, but then we are so often the least accepting of it within our own ranks…
Well said.
I do have a problem with the norms/values of certain “ethnic cultures” or subcultures.
Interesting. I just finished reading Stephanie Coontz’s The Way We Never Were: American Families and the Nostalgia Myth, and one of the points she makes it that most of those ethnic cultures/subcultures _do not actually have different values from white middle-class American culture_. They are merely unable to EXPRESS those values because of the resource deprivation. For example, not getting married/non-resident fathers is often held up as a problem of black American culture, but it’s actually a rational response to a resource-poor environment that penalizes marriage. Non-resident black fathers are substantially more likely to be involved with/raising their kids than non-resident white fathers, because the issue isn’t that they don’t want to get married or have kids, it’s that economically they and their kids are better off if they’re non-resident and unmarried. Obviously these are generalizations, but I wanted to bring it up in response to what you said — it may be a “norm”, but it’s not a “value”, and it’s a norm with very real problems associated with violating it, so I don’t think I can agree with holding the norm up as the problem: it’s a symptom.
point taken.
That’s ridiculous, of course there’s a gay community. Who do you think sets the Homosexual Agenda?!
I was reminded of this blog post this weekend at the Pride festival. The guy collecting donations said the donation goes to the gay community. I almost told him, “What gay community?”
And that led me to wonder where the money does go. I’m part of the gay community. Where’s my cut?