1) Being attracted or not to people of particular races, either in that race’s entirety, or just veering in that direction does not make one racist. Similarly, attraction or its lack to flamers, femmes or butches, doesn’t make one sexist or a homophobic.
2) I’ve noted a couple friends I identify with my earlier “fashionista” category who have expressed interest in sex while (mostly) clothed. At first, I found it kind of bemusing, but the whole “fashionista” thing puts it in a new light.
Maybe I don’t have enough sex, but I’m kind of off put by the idea of sex while mostly clothed. I like the feel of skin on skin contact.
Ah, but what about looking your best while doing the deed? =) And for that matter, what if what really caught your eye about that individual was the way their attire complemented their body to provide the sex appeal.
I mean, from a certain perspective naked bodies look alot like one another in ways that clothes can distinguish. =)
Truth be told, I’m on your side, and totally speculating on the viewpoints of others.
Interesting points.
I’ll have to consider it, but your whole “from a certain perspective naked bodies look alot like one another in ways that clothes can distinguish” statement ties into my original idea I need more sex: naked flesh is still too much the novelty for me to need additional distinctions.
Far be it from me to speculate as to your need or lack thereof vis-a-vis sex. But allow me to note that getting blase about nudity probably doesn’t really apply so much to the parties in question (they’re pretty selective).
I know I’ve gotten more than I need, and that can be somewhat ugly as well.
ymmv =)
What makes one racist, then? Upon what is such a categorical race-based attraction or lack of attraction based?
If I refuse to date anybody who is black, how is that better, morally, than refusing to live in a neighborhood where anybody is black?
There’s a difference between refusing to date anybody who is black and refusing to date anybody who you are not attracted to. The first is a conscious choice so it is racist. The second is outside your control, so it is not racist.
Saying “I refuse to date women” is sexist. Noticing that you are only attacted to men, and therefore never ending up dating a woman, is not.
I feel like you’re splitting hairs, but I agree with you nonetheless.
Your journal is also intriguingly blank. =)
You’re not missing anything; I don’t have a blog, just a placeholder there so I can reply to other people’s blogs. 🙂
My voyeuristic curiosity is thwarted again. So it goes. =)
If I unconsciously hurry up a bit whenever I see a black man walking in the street behind me then that’s also a reaction that’s out of my control, but I would probably say that it’s racist. Of course, both that and racially-correlated sexual attraction are much less problematically racist than explicitly denying someone a job because of her race, but both have racist aspects to them. I think there probably is something somewhat sexist about being attracted only to members of one sex.
Of course, in both these examples of sexual attraction, the racism and sexism don’t necessarily point in the direction one might expect. “Asian fetish” in white men isn’t generally seen as a sign of being pro-Asian and racist against white people and black people and hispanics, any more than straight guys that date only women are therefore feminist. In many instances of both those situations, the man in question is actually biased in many ways _against_ people of the category he exclusively dates, seeing them primarily as sexual objects.
Of course, it’s probably possible to have less problematic exclusivity in one’s sexual interests, though it’s hard to say for sure that there isn’t some subtle racism/sexism/classism/ageism/whatever going on.
But you’ve certainly got a good point about this distinction between explicit and unconscious racism.
agreed, though i think what cheerfulchaotic suggested originally was the second part of your last sentence, not the first.
and that heterodoxy interpreted it as the first?
Well..
.. the urge of sexual desire one feels upon seeing someone else is purely carnal and chemical, not unlike realizing that you have urges towards people of the same gender as you.
It’s very simple – you’re either into someone or you’re not, be it people with pot bellies, smooth skin, or red hair. If you find yourself not being sexually intrigued at all by people who are, say, asian (or under the age of 30, or black, or ..), except for incredibly rare exceptions.. are you trying to suggest that that is learned behavior, and therefor inherently wrong?
I thnk you’d be hard pressed to find someone perfectly willing to “date” or get into a relationship with someone who doesn’t stir even the slightest furor physically for them.
Re: Well..
But isn’t attraction on some level socially constructed? I think a racial sexual preference reflects and/or expresses societal racism, even if the person feeling (or not feeling) the attraction is not consciously racist.
Re: Well..
An interesting, related question is whether the (dis)attraction is a product of racially-identified culture or race, per se. I was kinda confused when I found myself attracted to a black Canadian on a visit a few years back, until I realized that he wasn’t putting out the same ‘vibe’ I expected from a black man, and that he was demonstrating cultural identifiers I found more appealing.
Just as another dimension to add onto it.
Re: Well..
i’m reminded (as often i am) of samurel r. delany’s particular fetish – bitten nails. most of his stories have characters that are nail-biters.
he’s not sure why himself – but he knows the attraction stems as far back as when he was quite young..
so what if instead of bitten nails, it was a roman nose? would he suddenly be a racist?
Re: Well..
Why would race-based attraction be any more or less socially constructed than gender-based attraction?
You’re not going to tell us that gender-based attraction is socially constructed too, are you?
Re: Well..
I do feel that sex-based attraction (I did switch the terms of the debate, feel free to make a point of this if you like) is probably more biological in basis than race-based attraction.
I certainly don’t regard the notion that my sexuality is in large part shaped by society as absurd. Rather than ask “Is it socially constructed?” I would ask “How [much] is it socially constructed?” Race based attraction seems way more socially constructed to me than sex-based attraction seems biologically determined.
Re: Well..
Well, to some degree I think that gender-based attraction IS socially constructed.
However, I think that it is a fallacy to equate gender-based attraction and race-based attraction. Race itself is a social construct– it does not exist genetically. Sex, on the other hand, is very clearly genetic (although here we stray into the gender vs. sex argument). I don’t think variation in the amount of melanin in the skin is remotely comparable to the presence or absence of sex-based hormones, organs, etc.
Re: Well..
I disagree. The visible parts of gender (other than presence or absence of relevant sex organs) fall along a spectrum (think “femme” to “butch” which has equivalents in both men and women). Different people will be attracted to different points on the spectrum.
Likewise, you are right that no one is 100% of one race or another. But I maintain that if someone is attracted to particular points on the (multi-dimensional) race spectrum and not attracted to particular other points, that still doesn’t make them a racist.
BTW it’s not true that “race does not exist genetically.” It is much more complex than gender, but check out the recent studies showing that, even once you control for environment, certain races are more or less prone to certain diseases than others. This is due to common genetic heritage of certain races versus others. Again, it’s all a spectrum, and at this point in the evolution of the planet we all have a bit of everything in us. But there is a genetic component to race, albeit much more poorly defined than sex.
Re: Well..
It’s one thing to see a particular guy and say, “I’m not attracted to him.”
It’s completely another thing to declare an entire race off limits, to claim that nobody in that racial category is ever attractive to you, even before you’ve seen them. I think such a declaration is a symptom of racism.
i think it is a form of racism when someone is un-attracted to a whole group of people based on race. many people might respond that it is just biology and that attraction is hard wired, but that is a cop out because it completely ignores the fact that what people are attracted to changes over time (certainly something hard wired into your biology wouldn’t change over time … like breathing, involuntary reflex, etc.). that argument is for people who don’t want to admit they are a little bit racist. but hey,
Everyone’s a little bit racist
Sometimes.
Doesn’t mean we go
Around committing hate crimes.
Look around and you will find
No one’s really color blind.
Maybe it’s a fact
We all should face
Everyone makes judgments
Based on race.
Now not big judgments, like who to hire
or who to buy a newspaper from –
No!
No, just little judgments like thinking that Mexican
busboys should learn to speak goddamn English!
Right!
Everyone’s a little bit racist
Today.
So, everyone’s a little bit racist
Okay!
Ethnic jokes might be uncouth,
But you laugh because
They’re based on truth.
Don’t take them as
Personal attacks.
Everyone enjoys them –
So relax!
Is it a form of sexism when someone is un-attracted to a whole group of people based on sex?
obviously not. you cannot compare race and sex when it comes to discrimination in sexual preference. no one should be dumb enough to believe that a straight woman is necessarily a misogynist because she is only attracted to men. no one should be dumb enough to believe that all straight men must be feminists because they are only attracted to women. however, not being attracted to someone because of skin color, that’s racist. get over it. you’re a little bit racist and so am i. whoop-d-fucking-do.
Is it obvious? I don’t know if biologically, we prefer to think that attraction comes by gender first, then other qualities like race. But who knows? Certainly, socially, we are taught that our sexual identity is based on gender of our partner/sexual attraction, not so much based on the race of our partner/sexual attraction. If we were in a society that reversed the two, maybe it won’t be so obvious.
i hate to be one of those people that relates human behavior to animal behavior, but certainly in nearly every species on the planet sex has to be the most important factor in sexual attraction. i’m going to say “nearly” because there has got to be some kind of sex-switching slug in the philippines where sex is irrelevant. but for us normal creatures that cannot change our sex, i’ll reiterate that nothing is more important in sexual attraction than sex. i guess bisexual people kind of brake this rule, but not really. what we learned in human sexuality was that most bisexual people go through phases of being attracted to men or women and/or are slightly more attracted to one sex than the other.
also notice how i am refusing to mix gender with sex. they are very different. an xy man could have a feminine gender and i could still be attracted to him because he is xy.
what kind of prejudice is it to only be attracted to people with long hair?
can you please name that form of prejudice? that is, a form of prejudice based on hair length?
that’s what i was asking you.. specifically, i was wondering why attraction based on anything other than race is considered ok, but attraction in any way relating to race is considered racism.
what if you have a thing for roman noses? black hair?
any of these things can, of course, occur (naturally or artificially) in races which normally don’t have them – and only then can you find out if it’s racial or not.
the problems with racism arise not from acknowledging other races, but from associating things with them – in other words, prejudcie (prejudging). being attracted to someone makes no judgment on them whatsover, other than literally that you believe them to be attractive. it is no more ‘morally wrong’ than being attracted to someone for any other reason.
i will admit, though, that such fetishism in its pure form might be somewhat rare – and that there is true prejudice influencing a lot of racially-tinged attractions or unattractions.. but i don’t think that you can argue fundamentally that any race fetish – based on the purely physical – is racism in any sense other than literally (and thus is not racist in the sense the word is normally used meaningfully)
of course, being attracted to a race because of their _culture_ is an _entirely_ different matter, which i don’t think comes into cheerfulchaotic’s original comment.
because there is no known prejudice based on hair length your question is faulty. the question about sex is valid because sexism exists. hairlengthism, to the best of my knowledge, does not exist so i passed your question back to you. you can’t just pick a random trait and assume that it is valid in the context of this conversation.
what if you have a thing for roman noses?
i ask you what made you attracted to roman noses in the first place. the only explanation i can think of is a baby form of racism. it’s probably not something you are conscious of, but have learned. liking roman noses is another example of how race preferences cannot be hard wired because what people understand to be roman changes over a relatively short period of time compared to human evolution.
hmm…
ok.
i think i am understanding what you’re saying. we’re speaking with slightly different meanings to our terms, so let me try and say what i think you’re saying… let me know if it sounds right.
(btw, an aside- there certainly is hairlengthism.. ask any guy who’s been called a damned hippy, or a short-haired girl who’s taken offense at being called “sir” or something. bad examples, and i’m not sure it’s the same -ism that you mean. but doens’t matter anyway)
so let’s take roman noses.
let’s make some big assumptions in order to get a ‘real’ situation.
let’s assume that your first sexual encounter was with someone with a ‘roman nose’ (whatever that means to you).
from that point on, you associate roman noses with sex.. in some deep subconscious way.
and so you are only (or chiefly? i think it needs to be only for this argument) attracted to people with that nose.
are you arguing that the ‘you’ in this example is racist, but in ways that they don’t quite comprehend? but that they are still racist, because they are making decisions about someone based on race, for reasons they don’t understand (which one can argue is no different from being scared of people with roman noses because they beat you up when you were a kid)?
is that kind of what you’re trying to say?
bingo … kind of. i was thinking more of that what most people find attractive what we see on TV and in magazines (the example you give is much more agreeable and one i must admit i had not thought about), the content of which i feel is heavily weighted in favor of caucasians (kind of good for me since i have brown skin, but my features are more caucasian than mexican). so, skipping a few steps, society isn’t color blind (a little bit racist). if we are complacent and/or allow ourselves to be caught up in all of that without examination, that’s still a little bit racist because we are members of society (don’t statement like that drive you nuts!? i hate writing things like “we as a society” blah blah blah). i put blame on the individual being shepperd-ed along as well as those doing the shepherding.
sorry we seemed to keep missing each other on that. i totally see what you were saying now, which if i am correct, is that if you don’t understand how/that what you are doing is based on race you can’t or shouldn’t be called a racist. is that right?
not quite right..:)
but actually the deeper we go into this issue, the deeper i am reminded about how i felt about these things when i was in the single-digit ages..
what _is_ the nature of physical attraction?
i still don’t think i rightly understand it completely, but i am pretty sure that there are probably some natural elements (pheremones, genetic predispositions in various ways) and social elements (like the roman nose mentioned above, or like tv as you mentioned)…
given that, what if instead of a roman nose, it was a tall person who you hooked up with.. and you could only be attracted to tall people… it’s moving further from racism – but the basis of it is somewhat similar… is there a place you can comfortably draw a meaningful line? (is the prejudice any less meaningfull now that it is further from race? what if it were people who bit their nails, as is samuel delany’s particular odd fetish).
so then, basically what we’ve come to is you are attracted to certain people, for certain reasons you don’t understand… is it wronger somehow if those people all fit into one race category? one gender category? or if they limit one category or another?
does it matter if the reason for your attraction is social, or somehow genetic?
these aren’t rhetorical questions i’m pretending to know the answer to (though they sound kind of like it).
given your attraction tendencies for whatever reason, if they have a racial tinge to them, what should you do about it? what if you don’t know the reason? what if, in actuality, you COULD be attracted to a person of a specific race which you thoguht you coudln’t, but you live your whole life not meeting them? are you still racist?
that’s another line that can be drawn… attraction because of race, or attraction to people of a sort that happens to (for any number of reasons) eliminate or prefer a race. (preference, again, for a certain kind of nose or something.. blond hair.. things like that)
i actually think racism may be worse if you don’t know the reasons – what about those poor american guys who watched ‘exotic asian women’ on tv when they were young and are somehow convinced that anyone from that area of the world is attractive like a small submissive girl, and live out pedophilic fantasies that way? (not that everyone with an asian fetish does this 😉 they probably aren’t aware of it.
but then – how much does cause affect this? if you live in a city with no whites at all, and never really meet a white person, and thus don’t date any, are you racist?
if the cause of your fetish is coincidental (first kiss from an asian) vs .. umm.. relational? (watching the movies with exotic asian women), does that make a difference too?
i’m just rambling here, but i see a lot of issues, and i think there is a pretty gray and confusing area (to me) with regards to all this.
i’ll stop now and let you (if you want) trudge through all that and see what you think. 🙂
i see your point now and more or less agree with you. i still think there is a lot more racism in sexual preference than you seem to think, however. going into the cafe on a saturday night and hearing half of the white guys say things like, “there are too many asian guys here” anecdotally forbids me from believing that any substantial amount of people fall into the camp of not racist in sexual preference, but i am now of the opinion than being more attracted to people who happen to be of a certain race isn’t necessarily racist.
cool 🙂 i’m not sure which situation cheerfulchaotic meant in his original post.. likewise, i probably gave more benefit of a doubt than i should have when thinking there wasn’t racism on the scene. there certainly is – i know i’ve been bothered by it in some cases…
not related, but an interesting anecdote.. a (chinese) girl was telling me that if she married a chinese guy, she would keep her maiden name (or his name, i forget which), but if she married a white guy, she would hyphenate their names…
i paused, and then went.. what about a black guy?
she (feebly) argued that for her purposes they were the same as white guys.
not related, as i said, but interesting.
i’m curious – do you have any idea what motivates someone to say ‘there are too many asian guys here’? in other words, if there’s something tangibly wrong (to them) with asian guys?
my guess is that they suffer from the same delusion that most people do about asian men and sexuality (that asian men are somehow less masculine … i would check this out for a better explanation … it is told from the asian perspective, but i think it hits the nail on the head).
that’s an interesting read, thanks…
every now and then i’m reminded about how particular my perspectives are – due to limited contact with the world..
The use of the term “lesbian” to identify gay Asian men who are attracted to each other is a stunning indication of how many gay Asian men perceive that only white men are “real” men and that Asian men who date each other are therefore “lesbians” — two “women” together. Mainstream society’s stereotyping of Asian men as feminine is raised to a grotesque level in the gay community.
“and your wise men don’t know how it feels to be thick as a brick”.. heh.. not quite the phrase i’m looking for.
sorry. i just read over my reply and it comes out a little more harsh than i meant it to be. i’ll blame that on being incredibly tired and things not sounding right when my tone of voice is ambiguous.
the base of my argument is the same though. sex is necessarily a part of sexual preference. you can’t get around that. if i thought (and i don’t) that all women were fugly it would certainly be misogynistic of me, but not being sexually attracted to women is simply the mandatory sex in SEXual orientation.
I’m not offended by your replys, but I still don’t agree with you.
I’m not sure there’s anything either of us can do to convince the other here though.
For me, it all gets down to motive (similar to deciding whether something is a hate crime). If I won’t date people of a certain race (gender) because of prejudicial generalizations that I hold about the group, then that’s racist (sexist). But if I happen to be biologically not attracted to people of a certain race (gender), then I don’t think that’s racist (sexist).
BTW I don’t disagree at all with your claim that “we’re all a little bit racist” but I just don’t seeing it coming into this issue automatically.
i just cannot see how one can be biologically predetermined to be attracted or not to a particular race. there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that people are biologically predetermined to be attracted to a particular sex (there has even been some interesting new stuff about tracking homosexuality through genetics on the mothers side). race is pretty much a social construction, though. for example, in the south there used to be a distinct and separate ethnic group for half black, half white people, and this group of people was treated, thought of, and behaved very differently than full black people. the fact that this group no longer exists (truly, people who are half black, half white are simply thought of as black today) is perfect example of how race preference cannot be hard wired because what we understand to be race changes over relatively short periods of time compared to human evolution. race preference is simply a matter of some learned form of racism. do i think it is wrong? not really, because i don’t think it is a conscious decision we make. we just don’t need to lie to ourselves about it to make ourselves feel better.
when i was younger, i thought maybe people could be biologically predisposed to vary the gene pool. i’m not sure i’d believe that now, but it seemed possible.
also, i understand there are some theories that attraction to big breasts related to the ape (which ape? don’t remember) attraction to big butts – or really, swollen vaginas in heat. i thought it was a stretch (no pun intended), but if things like attraction to secondary sex characteristics can be encoded, i see no reason why other oddness might also be. nothing so specific as “attraction to whites”.. but maybe preference for skin tone, height, hair, who knows what – maybe something we haven’t thought of.
not that i’m saying it’s definitely genetically encoded – i just don’t feel comfortable eliminating the possibility completely.
physical characteristics like those you mentioned i believe can be hard wired in, but i’m still skeptical. the idea of beauty changes a lot. once upon a time fat people were idolized. i would hardly say that is the case now. short hair was the in thing in the flapper days, now we seem to be moving back to long hair. it seems rather impossible that something like hair preference can be hard wired in when the ideal changes in less time than it takes for even the most minute amount of evolution to occur. the more i think about attraction, though, the more i realize we are likely never to come to a solid conclusion, which irks me. i rather detest discussing things when there really is nothing to be gained. although i guess i did gain the knowledge that this question is far too complicated for science to answer at this point in time. heh.
yeah, you have a good point which i hadn’t thought of – the slowness of evolution comparitvely.
i wonder if it’s something like (my understanding of) the coriolis effect, where in a giant tub it is supposed to be noticeable that the earth’s rotation causes water to rotate, but that is always overpowered by other aspects of typical household versions of the experiment (curvature of faucets, toilets, things like that). i’ve never confirmed this, but i’ve heard it, and the analogy still is interesting even if untrue in the coriolis case.
incidentally, if you’re at all interested in this sort of stuff (attraction, sexuality), have you read any samuel r delany? he has some pretty interesting perspectives on it, and also tells a good story in the process.
i’m not sure i understand how the coriolis effect applies unless you are only referencing it as something that is out there but so minute a force that it can’t under most normal circumstances be used to explain anything. 🙂
i’m mostly just a vacuous fag studying chemistry who sometimes tries to play with the non-chemist types. when i finish mists of avalon i’ll have to go check delany.
ergh. my browser ate my comment. here is the summary.
yes, right about coriolis 😉
re: delany, (trouble on) triton and stars in my pockets like grains of sand both address these particular issues fairly head-on.. triton more so, but i thought maybe stars was a better novel. hard to say. it was, at least, less experimental and more powerful.
dhalgren and the mad man are also good (for other reasons)… the mad man, particularly, has a narrator who is a gay, sexually active/adventurous, philosophy grad student, and tries to show ‘both sides’ of his lifestyle.. and also has a plot, etc.
personally, ever since i’d been introduced to delany’s writing i haven’t been able to get enough. your mileage may vary 🙂
I love to leave parts on when I’m have sex. 🙂
errr… having sex.
Hmmm, what about it pleases you so? =) Just curious.
Well I dunno if you could call it a fetish but I love it when stuff remains hidden. Plus it’s so sexy.
I would agree with. I like it when certain clothes stay on … it’s kind of like a “taboo” kind of thing, you know? Like, you’re taught that sex can only be had when two naked people get together. But I find it pretty damn hot when someone leaves their shirt and ball cap on, or if they just kinda whip it out through their fly—even though there isn’t a particular pressing reason to “remain clothed” (i.e. sex in public).
Now granted, I loooove skin on skin, too, and snuggling in bed and what not. But the reasons that I find occasional clothes wearing hot are the same reasons that I find fucking on the kitchen counter or in the living room hot. Change of pace.
And, it’s true—some people look better if they keep their clothes on, anyway. 😀
Hahah…. if I had any doubt about what category you placed me into, it has since been removed. 😛
you clothes whore!
C’mon, do you deny a strong interest in clothes and hair, or a penchant to shop at stores associated with particular namebrands? =)
Not saying it’s your only cultural affiliation, or the only facet of your personality, but it’s definitely there. =)
Even I’ve been known to pay some attention to my appearance from time to time. 😉
For some reason I like the idea of ripping off some Vercase and Hysteric Glamour off some fashionista to get down to their Deisel underwear and then rip them off as well. I’m guessing it’s mainly because all my clothes are ghetto!
Have you tried ripping clothing before? Unless it’s like ready to throw out, I sure can’t do it. It does make a fun fantasy though. =)
Hrm, just my personal opinion but…
I do have preferences, but I think there’s beauty to be found in all races, and I don’t find it implausible to see myself dating just someone of any race.
I do, however, tend to not be that attracted to feminine guys, but what I define as feminine has more to do with emotions rather than mannerisms. The butch-est, macho skater boy I dated was the biggest pussy *ever*. =P